is it the same?
Mark Driscoll unleashed
at Jason Clark’s blog
Jason made a comment regarding MD that concerned me and I thought I’d open it up here. This is my comment to him.
your comment concerns me though Jason - I do applaud your grace but I find this sort of scary.
“Whilst I find Mark’s approach to women in ministry, and his public rhetoric something that troubles me…BUT”
As a woman “in ministry” a statement like that is very similar to saying “sure, he doesn’t allow black people to be elders but he’s a really solid bible teacher otherwise”.
Why is your statement (and you’re not the only one who says it about driscoll) different?
I was born a woman, my friend was born black. Neither of us could affect that. It’s how we were made. The bible speaks both to race and to gender providing a generous equality that was BEYOND RADICAL for the day, and yet, somehow, because I’m a woman and not black - in MD’s world, I’m inferior. Why can he get away with his misogyny when he wouldn’t be able to get away with racism?
I just don’t get it. And as far as I’m concerned, as long as people embrace him, he’s going to continue.
Where I do agree with you is that we in emerging give him too much attention. And like a toddler, the more negative attention we give him, the more he’s going to continue being naughty…and we have a history of not being very loving for sure.
I guess I’m a little torn on this issue because there are a lot of men and woman who I gain great inspiration from who have ideas about other human beings that are less than stellar. Maybe it’s because I’m a woman, maybe it’s because MD is so appallingly arrogant but either way, it just seems wrong to give him a pass on this…even if in the spirit of “extending grace”.
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Good question.
The charge of misogyny is denied on the basis of theology. To change that, the complementarian view of women in ministry would have to be seen as wrong, invalid to the same degree as racism, without excuse or exception. I’m afraid I don’t see that happening anytime soon.
it’s not just about women in ministry though - it’s the notion that a person, on the basis of how they were BORN, is to be denied using their gifts in some capacity.
I agree with you on the fact that it’s an issue of theology but racism is no longer seen as an issue of theology even though it once was - it took someone saying - “look, this isn’t just a simple theological difference”
it just doesn’t sit well with me is all I’m saying.
Sorry … but I don’t see that he’s a “solid Bible teacher” on anything … least of all women’s issues. And, uh, since when does being a “solid Bible teacher” give you a pass on the issue of humility, peace, grace and the other fruits of the spirit which he markedly does NOT display in public. Those are the marks of a mature believer … one who should be teaching and leading. He’s outgrown his britches.
exactly
Mak,
Yeah, it doesn’t sit well with me either.
I meant that theology is the excuse they use to justify misogyny. When it is labeled a theological disagreement, it supposedly cannot be challenged, but has to be accepted as simply a difference of opinion.
This came up recently somewhere else and I was amazed to see the double standard. Those demanding tolerance for “differing theological opinions” I am sure would never apply that same standard and demand that we be tolerant of racism as a way of expressing our openness to diversity.
I see very few people willing to take the stance that to deny the equal spiritual standing of women with complete freedom to express their giftings without limitation in the church IS wrong. Whether we call it sexism, patriarchy, complementarianism, misogyny, bigotry, or simply injustice, it is always wrong to hinder the grace of God in the lives of others.
How do you ever get past the point where others see this as simply a difference of opinion, an equally valid interpretation of scripture, a theological disagreement?
I am always proud of your willingness to speak up and call it what it is.
thanks grace, I actually wish I could keep my mouth shut but hey, I’m not “under” anyone so I’m FREE! LOL no “apostolic covering” holding me down
I have double standards in my life too so I’m not trying to arrogantly stand over everyone saying that I have it all figured out but honestly, this just seems SO OBVIOUS to me and when people who disagree with people like MD excuse it as just a mere difference of opinion, it makes me even more frustrated
Makeesha
I totally agree with your comment on the post. I also agree with your struggle (your comment on your comment here on this note).
There are people I disagree with that I’ve learned a lot from too. However, I think your right in challenging how we talk about things like this. There are was to talk about MD that are kind, loving, and still disagree, still be deeply offended by someone’s cruelty or inhumanity, and yet still love them.
So, I guess my thought, don’t be so torn. You can find a way to be loving and yet challenging. It’s not necessarily easy (not saying I’ve got it figured out), but I do think it’s possible.
LOL! I nearly posted on this a week ago or so. I got sent an email by someone at a previous church inviting me to attend the event in London - I was like “NO WAY!”
Great comment you left on Jason’s site and I really agree with the comments above.
I agree that we should be kind and loving but we should also challenge - we see in the bible (being the solid bible teacher that I am!) that some of the apostles challenged each other. I’m sure there are some really good things going on through MD’s church but his stance on women in particular really needs challenging.
In these enlightened enlightened times I am super glad that there are so many people like you Mak showing us how wrong we can be.
Historical, theologoical and cultural blinkers abound and what we would go to the stake and die for in 300 or 1500 may be very different to what we are willing to go the stake in 2008 (it also makes me wonder what we will be burned for in 2208?).
Paul - for sure, David and I were talking about this last night and I have a certain “grace” in situations because of the human in process. I personally think this issue needs to be taken head on and put to bed for good. Obviously, if others can get over that issue and listen to people like MD that’s fine but it’s still frustrating to me
Mak, maybe the question is not whether there will be racism, suffering, misogyny, or hatred but whether we will be love in the midst of it.
but I don’t think love mean concession.
Jonathan, those things will always be with us, just as poverty will always be with us. But we don’t think that’s right either … we don’t shrug our shoulders and just say, “here’s some love.” We feed the poor. We do what we can to change their circumstances … because that is giving love feet. In the same way we give love feet by enacting justice in the face of racism, misogyny and hatred. We don’t just simply shrug our shoulders at it. MD needs to be called what he is and that is love. We don’t need to be spiteful, or shrill or mean. But calling a spade a spade and walking away can sometimes be the most loving thing someone can do.
I think this is also the point I was trying to make - the reality is that most people - esp. men in Christianity - do not see the treatment of women in some flavors of Christianity as unjust. They don’t see it as dehumanizing and disrespectful, they see the issue as one of theological difference…and hey, we can all just agree to disagree over a theological difference. And as long as that thinking remains, there’s not much substantial change that’s going to happen.
As long as people like MD are seen as just mildly annoying and slightly “off” instead of completely unChrist-like and opposing the very purpose of God’s redemptive work these attitudes will continue.
And my core point was to say that the same people who grant MD the license to be sexist would NEVER grant him the license to be racist.
Mak, et all,
First off, the obvious. I’m a man, so I know that I cant full understand the issue from your perspective. I’m trying though.
“it’s not just about women in ministry though - it’s the notion that a person, on the basis of how they were BORN, is to be denied using their gifts in some capacity.” -Amen. I guess I wish for some consistency. It seems to me that churches that are willing to play the gender card but not the race card should be willing to stand up proud and say, “people of non-white descent (is that PC enough?) where created to be complimentary to those of white descent.”
Ladies, I’m not saying simply to be a pacifist to the issue. I’m talking about being love in the midst of racism and misogyny. People who are afraid of women or gays or black or any category are likely to strike. And it is at that moment that we strike back that we become like them. To love is to say, “You do not define me,” through non-violent resistance. Your views do not change who I am.
What feeds people like Mark is that it riles you ladies up. The question is then to what type of action? Will we create solutions that reveal the truth of the matter.
my action to mark is to do exactly what I’m doing right now
Jonathan, the response I am about to write is not to you specifically, because I know your heart from having read so much of your writing. However, I am going to respond to the ideas in your previous comment because they exemplify what women continually face regarding this issue.
It amazes me that in most cases of women addressing the problem, we become the problem. As if somehow we could figure out how to address the problem perfectly, then we would earn the right to be considered. Until then we are written off as emotional, reactionary, militant, riled up, etc.
We are not responsible for feeding Mark’s problem. Mark is responsible for Mark’s behavior. And a culture that condones and silently tolerates those attitudes as acceptable feeds the problem. Until there is an overwhelming reaction from men saying that the subordination of women in the kingdom of God is wrong, intolerable, unacceptable, and should not continue for another day, guys like Mark are free to flaunt their misogyny.
That’s what love would look like to me. Most men, even those who sympathize, really don’t understand how impotent women are to continually make the stand “you don’t define me” in the face of “theological differences.” Often before the words leave our mouths, regardless of tone, we are tuned out, dismissed, and labeled as “one of those”.
I am not riled up, angry, bitter, or emotional. I am tired of biting my cheeks and trying to compose the perfect response in order to truly be heard.
Stephen - good point.
Grace- yes, EXACTLY! This whole “why can’t you just love MD?” attitude is honestly really bizarre to me - it’s like they’re saying “I don’t care about loving YOU by standing up for you, I want YOU to love MD and stop speaking out.” It’s just so strange to me.
Jonathan … it is never loving to lie down in the face of injustice and refuse to name it for what it is. If we refuse to stand and stop violence, we become the violence we wish to stop. That is not peaceful or loving. Simply not doing anything can be just as violent as violence itself.
Change and the rooting out of evil always requires good to stand and shine. Shining a bright light in the places where darkness has been can hurt your eyes at first. But that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t shine it. Just because the light hurts someone’s eyes doesn’t mean that we’re being violent or unloving.
Treating women as though they should not do and be who God called them to be is evil. It’s plain and simple. Treating any creation of God as less than who or what God has called for that person is evil. It is loving to call out evil in it’s time. I will continue to do so in a non-violent and respectful manner.
Again ladies I’m not calling you to lie down so people can step on you, as if you have no dignity. But as long as the solution for women’s suffrage (because it began a long time ago) is dependent on men changing, it ain’t gonna happen. I’m not saying it’s wrong to voice your opinion. But what people like Mark are looking for is a fight. They want you to fight them. That’s often their point because it feeds their misogyny.
The point I’m making is that our suffering is often the melting pot that calls us into deeper restoration through being love to people, to turn the other cheek. And our turn to turn the other cheek is often in the areas that suck. These are the areas God calls us to transform.
And Sonja, I would counter you by saying that some of the greatest peace marches in history have been when we choose to take the blow, which in non-violent resistant movements (such as Jesus) reveals the folly of the person doing the hitting. But the moment we strike back is the moment we become just as bad as them.
There are typically three responses to harm we can make. We can run. We can’t fight. Or we can take a stand for our own dignity and the dignity of the other person, which is love. I’m not saying this stuff is easy…but it is good.
I’m going to remind you Jonathan that you are a man, and white, and this issue, it’s very difficult for us to hear you say “oh come on ladies, just turn the other cheek, learn to love”….
having said that, you’re right of course, we are supposed to love especially when it’s hard, but I challenge you a little bit on what you define as “peaceful resistance” in this case.
I’m marching against MD’s ideas about women, I’m not hitting back. And I’m challenging others to “march” as well. My challenge to Jason was to suggest that perhaps it’s not helpful to tell people MD is preaching in their city - to essentially encourage people to see him speak is essentially an affirmation. MD will not “get it” until people stop affirming him. I would have LOVED to see Jason say a complete flip flop of what he did - MD is preaching here, in spite of knowing that his congregation is loving and serving and in spite of a few good things M says, I would discourage paying him a visit because of (and then explain what he has done against women)
Refusing to affirm MD is not unloving, it’s peaceful resistance. Hitting back would be attacking his character and doing what he does to us as women - telling him he can’t use his gifts because of his gender…I’m not doing that. I affirm that he has said good things, lots of horrible people have said good things. i’m not questioning his eternal condition or anything, I’m saying …
It’s time people stood up and pointed out that what men like Mark are doing against women is a similar thing to what was done to blacks and it’s JUST as inexcusable. period.
I’m not waiting for men to change, that’s why I’m not a part of those types of churches and movements…but that doesn’t mean I shouldn’t stand up and speak out.
and for the record, MD is only a single personification of a whole HUGE issue - I only single him out because that’s who Jason was talking about. I could have used any number of men’s names here.
Mak, to a certain extent I was responding to Grace’s point when she said, “Until there is an overwhelming reaction from men saying that the subordination of women in the kingdom of God is wrong, intolerable, unacceptable, and should not continue for another day, guys like Mark are free to flaunt their misogyny.”
I would also offer that I am on your side. I agree with you. I almost wrote as well that I am white and male. In my Master’s class on diversity we had to read six books on racism, class and power. In every single case I was the guy who was in power. I feel that responsibility. For 8 weeks I took shots from every side and felt like crap. But in the end, although I could sense what women and black and Indians and Latinos felt, I could not BE them. I could only stand with them.
and I think what we’re saying Jonathan is that we don’t feel that you’re with us when every time we speak out, people like you say things that “sound like” - come on ladies, this is a test to see if you can show love. It gets really tiresome really fast and I know you’re not doing this, but most of us have had that sort of stuff thrown at us by men in power as a way to manipulate and control us so I think you’ll understand if you’re getting a strong reaction here.
So … I’m confused, Jonathan … what ARE you suggesting we do?
What do you see as a loving way of handling this?
Here’s the deal. I know people like Mark. I’ve been friends with people like Mark. And to be honest, people like Mark are not likely to change. Even a resounding clarion call to Mark is not going to change Mark. He believe what he believes.
What I’m suggesting is that women do what every great women in history have done. And that is prove him wrong. Because what guys like Mark want is for you to get steaming mad and shout and cry, and say, “this is bullshit.” This is what feeds people like this. And when they do, they win. It’s about attention and your giving it to him.
The reality is that I haven’t suggest anything other than what Jesus is calling you to. I know its not fun. This is the journey. I’ve never suggested not speaking, or even pronouncing your voice against it. But there will ALWAYS be bullies. Remove Mark and there are 6 million others ready to fill his place. And they have Scripture to back them up too. Do you really want to expend that kind of energy trying to change a problem that will not go away. The rub being that Mark actually grabs your attention. Or do you want to spend the energy revealing what each of you are called to, which is strength and courage and dignity that reflects Him.
The question is not will the world change but will we find love in the midst of suffering, that love really will change us. And I’m not talking about the sticky gooey love that says, “Oh Mark. It’s okay.” I’m talking about the kind on the cross that says, “You may not think I’m worth it, but I’ll believe were both worth it, so I’ll do it for both of us.”
We validate our own dignity and the cross when we find the dignity in our enemy, not shut him up. It was always love that changed the world, not the removal of the problem.
I’ll quote Ghandi, “Be the change you want to see.” Real change comes in participating in positive action, not negative reaction.
I’m not trying to get mark to change and I don’t really spend much energy on him - but I AM trying to work toward a redemptive shift in our christian culture (specifically evangelical) and I feel obliged to speak out.
I guess I need to ask if you think I’m not doing what you’re suggesting because I feel scolded and I’m pretty sure some other women do too - if you’re speaking generally, yes of course, I agree with you, I seek to live that way always. But if you’re speaking to me suggesting that what I have said in this post is contrary to what you’re suggesting then that’s where we have the disconnect.
it’s really easy to come from a place of moral superiority from the outside telling someone their response is wrong (either emotionally or otherwise) and I’m sort of getting that vibe from you.
I would like to clarify a few of the things that I already said, just so that anyone reading my previous comments understands them.
I have no expectation that Mark or other complementarians will change their position.
I would not suggest attacking or being unloving towards Mark or other complementarians.
However, I strongly denounce the subordination of women.
I am asking that the brothers who claim to agree with this would actually take a stand to declare that this is wrong each and every time the issue comes up. They are the men that I hope will consider changing, not the ones who are entrenched in patriarchy.
Rob Bell and Eugene Cho are a couple that I am aware of who have been willing to take a stand saying this is wrong.
This particular thread and the one at Jason’s are an example of women explaining how we need the brothers who actually care about this issue to stand with us. Is there any chance we will be heard and understood?
Mak, I hope you would sense that I am speaking in general, not at you. If I have assumed too much about our friendship and shared concern, then please forgive me.
I don’t presume to truly know anyone that I don’t know in person. You have always been an ally but I guess I’m not feeling very supported but rather preached at that I need to be loving. I guess I thought that was assumed. Grace said it well, this isn’t about mark or patriarchalists at all for that matter, this is about being a voice for those who have no voice and speaking out against injustice. The Scriptures call us to nothing less. Until men stop making excuses for men like MD, the injustice wins and I cannot let injustice win.
Okay … now I see the disconnect.
You see … I’m not asking MD to change. Calling something what it is, does not necessarily call for change. Telling the night that it is dark outside, does not mean I want the sun to come up. But it does mean that I will respond differently to the night than how I respond to the day.
Only MD can decide whether or not he wants to change. Right now that is not going to happen and you are correct in that assessment. He has far too much going for him. Too many people are stroking his ego.
Sometimes turning the other cheek can look differently to one who is powerful than to one who is not. You might want to think about how that would play out for you versus how it plays out for women or people of color. We have been told to be quiet for so long that we speak in whispers now for our voices have been all but lost. If we sometimes sound strident to you, it’s because we are still learning to modulate and control them. But we must speak. What we need from you is support, not chastisement. Please do not say that we must not speak. You are merely giving different reasons for the same result. Keeping women quiet.
Ladies, I’m going to share my heart with you and hope that you see that I AM on your side. This is my perspective so please try and hear my heart. My assumption in commenting has been to encourage you to find a whole response, not to preach at you.
Please don’t misconstrue love for being silent. I actually said the opposite. It meant for me to be everything God has designed you women to be. My concern has not been that you are voicing your opinion, but that in voicing that opinion (even for social justice) that you find love in that. And I didn’t say you didn’t. I originally asked how we find love in this, but it doesn’t mean being silent. I had no idea that this is the common response from men. And to be honest I wouldn’t change that response because that would be the one I would give to my daughter. But from my perspective, it has always meant being proactive in response.
But my concern is one of permission. Do you need men’s permission to be in ministry? My answer is no. And so I long to see what you ladies can do to show the world that. There is a lot of power in everyone on this comment section. Each of you has the power to influence and to come up with amazingly creative responses to people like Mark that the world can’t ignore. And I’m not saying be silent. I’m suggesting that a more powerful response is to be creative.
Let me explain it a different way. My daughter, who is eight, is a very good athlete likes to play with the boys because she can kick their butts. But if I saw her waiting for them to say she could play before she stepped in the game, I’d wonder why she didn’t think she had permission. Who told her that? The power of misogyny, from my perspective, is always its power over the person who believes in it. But that power is essentially a lie. Her best response, from my perspective is not to shout, “this isn’t right” (even though she can do that), but to simply get in the game. Her active presence and engagement is her response.
And I’m not saying you aren’t in the game. I’m saying that discussion over Mark are derailments. And I know what this feels like. I’ve gotten derailed too. And I shake my head afterward and go “Ugh”.
From my perspective, you ladies don’t need men’s permission to get in the game. To have our permission means that some other men can take it away. From my perspective, God has already given you permission. I want to support you, but I also don’t want to see you lose energy facing the wrong fights. Its why I loved seeing you (Mak) come up with the publication. This is a voice for change. It’s proactive.
Maybe this is all because I come from a family of very strong women who didn’t need permission and constantly challenged the system. They always assumed they could play.
Another perspective of what I am talking about. In the early 90’s I worked in Hollywood. And misogyny was (maybe still is) big there. It’s was a man’s world on the set. And there were very few women directors or woman anything (other than makeup and wardrobe). A group of women got together and said, something needs to change. So they started Women In Film. It ended up creating some really great projects and captured huge attention because the women were just doing it. They didn’t ask. They just did it. And what was really funny is that men were clamoring to be part of what they were doing.
And this is my hope. I want to see your creativity and power manifest it in something positive. That is what I meant by love. Please understand that I have the best hopes for what women offer.
I still think you’re misunderstanding Jonathan - this isn’t about me or sonja or grace - we don’t need permission and you know that we’re living out lives out loud regardless of who tries to silence us. We’re not waiting for anyone.
This is about my daughters and sonja’s daughter and every other girl and woman out there - esp. those who have already experienced abuse and are continuing to experiencing it under the guise of “men in leadership”.
This is about our boys and men growing up in a patriarchal society that still objectifies and subjugates women.
Just because I have a meal doesn’t mean others do too and just because I can make a living for myself doesn’t mean others can. Just because I’ve gotten free doesn’t mean others have too.
We ARE living the life you are talking about Jonathan, and challenging md’s ideas doesn’t diminish that in any way - in fact, it’s gives credence to the lives we are able to live. If you think any of us are asking for permission from anyone you don’t know us at all.
I’ve been thinking about this alot … while I’ve been ironing wads and wads of fabric (don’t ask
)
So … Rosa Parks did not ask permission when she took a seat up at the front of the bus. Yet her action was scandalous. Some white people at the time would have probably called it violent. Certainly white Christians in the South of a certain thought stream would have said it was not loving or Christ-like to rock the boat like that. Such behavior was not going to change anything. Why oh why could she not just love those who were putting her down?
…and they all lived happily ever after.
The End